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James J. Lippard May-29-93 02:35PM Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics Organization: University of Arizona From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) Message-ID: <29MAY199315354143@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu> Newsgroups: talk.origins,sci.skeptic The latest (June 1993) issue of the ICR's _Acts & Facts_ announces a new book from Duane Gish, _Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics_. The advertisement enclosed with _Acts & Facts_ says: Just off the press! The long-needed book answering the major attacks against creation and creation scientists. Dr. Gish has won [sic] more than 300 debates against evolutionary scientists and is familiar with their arguments and tactics. In this 451-page book, he thoroughly refutes the leading anti-creationist books published in the past fifteen years, and establishes a strong case for special creation. Everyone interested in origins (and that should mean everyone!) needs a copy of this book. But not so fast. The announcement in _Acts & Facts_ itself, p. 2, says: GISH ANSWERS CRITICS IN NEW BOOK The long-awaited book by Dr. Duane Gish, _Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics_, is scheduled for release by ICR in June. Dr. Gish has analyzed several of the most important anti- creationist books and articles published in recent years, and has thoroughly refuted their often bitter and irrational [sic] attacks on creationism. While it may not silence the critics, readers at least will be able to see that their arguments are emotional [sic] and superficial [sic], rather than scientific. In this volume, Dr. Gish does not deal with anti-Biblical arguments, *nor with arguments against the young earth and worldwide Flood*, but only with the basic scientific issue of creation versus evolution. [emphasis added -jjl] On *that* topic, he not only answers the evolutionists, but also provides a thorough critique of evolutionism [sic] and strong evidence for special creation. The book may be ordered from the Institute for Creation Research. It contains 451 pages and has a retail price of $16.95 (plus tax and shipping, where applicable). [ICR, P.O. Box 2667, El Cajon, CA 92021. California residents must pay sales tax; shipping charges are 20%.] This seems to me to be a tacit admission of the indefensibility of young-earth creationism. Any bets on whether or not Gish takes up Edward Max's second law of thermodynamics challenge in this book? I've ordered a copy and will report here on the content of the book when I get it. I've also ordered a copy of Marvin Lubenow's _Bones of Contention: A Creationist Assessment of Human Fossils_ which is being touted as "The most complete and accurate critique of the so- called 'ape-men'" and is supposedly superior to Gish's _Evolution: The Challenge of the Fossil Record_ (the 1985 revision of his _Evolution: The Fossils Say No!_). The Lubenow book is also sold by the ICR, for $12.95. By the way, the latest _Acts & Facts_ also reports on an April 29 debate at San Diego State University between Gish and Richard Lumsden on the ICR side and Frank Awbrey and William Thwaites on the anti- creationism side. The ICR report claims that the four debaters agreed in advance to discuss only thermodynamics, the fossil record, the origin of life, and the diversity of life, and that neither Awbrey nor Thwaites abided by this condition. _Acts & Facts_ claims that Awbrey began by saying that he had nothing to say about thermodynamics or the fossil record, but instead "chose to make fun of the Biblical doctrine of the Flood" and that Thwaites' "entire lecture consisted of a series of prepared slides showing out-of- context quotes ... and caricatures of the ICR position, designed not so much to inform, but to ridicule." The ICR summary goes on to say that "The rebuttals and question periods were likewise one-sided, although a little more science was included." Was anyone here present at this debate? I thought Awbrey and Thwaites were generally considered pretty good debaters against creationists, but this description sounds like they didn't do so well. Did the ICR misrepresent the content of the debate? (I wouldn't find this particularly surprising.) Jim Lippard Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU Dept. of Philosophy Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 ===================================================================== Bruce d. Scott May-30-93 05:57AM Re: Creation Scientists Answer Their Critics Organization: Rechenzentrum der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft in Garching From: bds@uts.ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce d. Scott) Message-ID: <1uaeflINNgfc@nsat.ipp-garching.mpg.de> Newsgroups: talk.origins,sci.skeptic I would just like to comment on the nature of these "debates" between scientists and creationists. They have more of the flavor of courtroom debate dramas rather than scientific discourse. That is, they tend more to be legalistic than scientific [*]. That Dr Gish "won" 300 of these debates does not have value if they were judged the way debate competitions are judged and not actually as science. I've seen this sort of thing before, with a character on W Buckley's _Firing Line_ who was a Judge who had recently got interested in the creationism/ evolution debate. (I've forgotten his name but don't think it was Gish.) [*] The fact that most of the American public cannot tell the difference and is actually quite enamored of legalism is one of the things which adds to the danger presented by this particular brand of anti-science. -- Gruss, Dr Bruce Scott The deadliest bullshit is Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds at spl6n1.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de -- W Gibson

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