I Know the Facts..
Thanks. You may type many lines to confuse but in the end the confused will be here on earth confused and wondering.
Where have all the Christians Gone..... OOPS Maybe they were right..
Dale Fahrney One4God@Earthlink.net
John 3:16 N.I.V.
For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that for whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Have you Made your Choice. ? Still No Fear ?
Promise Keepers Indianapois Attendee 1995, 1996,
You HAVE to be one of the most misquided individuals on the face of the earth.
I saved this article on my Hard Drive, since drivel like this dosent come along every day. <thank God>
You should have taken Samuell Clements advice and.."remained silent and allowed the world to 'think' you a fool, rather than opening your mouth and removing ALL doubt".
You <and I> are both 'living proof' that any monkey with a computer can call themselves a writer.....only difference is....I KNOW I'm NOT. ROFL!
What is wrong with Christian men gathering in our nation's capitol in order to repent of racism and other sins?
The comment about repenting from gay-bashing does have truth in it. I agree that some Christians go to far and display hatred toward homosexuals. God condemns the action, not the person. Nevertheless, homosexuality is a choice sin. If a person chooses to be a homosexual, then they have condemned themselves.
In Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27, the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin. Don't get me wrong, everyone lives with sin, but not everyone lives in sin. We all have lived in sin at sometime or another. Homosexuality is a practicing sin. Revelation 21:8 states that no sin will enter heaven.
If we trust in Jesus Christ as our Lord and personal Saviour, then we give him the sinful area of our lives so that he can take control. The Bible also states that the man is the head of the household.
I agree that any marriage involves compromise by both parties. The man is the biblical authority. He should not by any means abuse that authority that has been given him, though. He should keeps his actions in accord with the definition of love as stated in I Corinthians 13.
Anyway, I respect your right to hold to your view. I would like to express mine also. Let us express ourselves out of respect for each other. Every person is entitled to their own opinion.
I respect your, so please respect mine. God bless!
Chad Harvey (Acts 3:19)
These pages I have just reviewed seem to me to come from the SEPTIC tank.
I would suggest that contributors to this view read the Bible, and see what God has to say. This is what the people who are involved in this movement are doing. And they are finding out how short some men have come from being the kind of men that God created us to be.
Thanks for your view. It is interesting to observe that the predictions of the last days of the current world are progressing even as the prophets of the Bible predicted.
Sincerely, in Christ,
thank god and you for the files:
your probably-goin'-to-burn-in-hell bud,
Right now Jesus is knocking at the door of your heart. PLEASE respond! He loves you so much that He died for you! He died just for you Frederic! Jesus has CHANGED my thoughts and desires, not someone or some program. He wants to do the same for you!
A 15-year old Promise Keeper,
fr> I've already attended one in Colorado, thanks. It's unfortunate
fr> that a great many men feel insecure enough about their marriages
fr> to refrain from seeking professional marriage concealing, though.
fr> It's also unfortunate that so many men feel they must dominate
fr> their wives and justify it with the Christian gods.
fr> That should be a blasphemy.
I would like to respond to a comment you made in you last e-mail to me.
First, the words that come from the mouths of the speakers at Promise Keepers as well as every church in the entire world are the words of people and are therefore not perfect or infallible.
Second I would like to respond to your answer using only the Bible. I believe the Bible to be the ONLY infallible word of God.
You said that you think it is unfortunate that so many men feel they must dominate their wives.
Lets look at the Bible.
Ephesians 5:23, 25 For the husband is he head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church.
I Peter 2:22 He committed no sin and no deceit was found in his mouth. When they hurled their insults at him he did not retaliate; when he suffered he made no threats. Instead he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness
Philippians 2:4-8 Each of you should not look to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in the very nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on the cross!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever belives in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Thank you for aiding in Gods work among the lost souls of Indiana. Your
view of Christians will help me in showing how far off the unchurched
mind can go when left to his own sin. Though I will enjoy the times I
will share your material (and then explain the truth) It will pain me
knowing you are not able to share in the joy of our salvation. How ever
it pleases our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ that you do your part
by not riding the fence. I wish more Christians were as strong in their
faith as you are in the lack of of it. Again Thank you, my sunday school
classes will never be the same. Ha, ha, Let them try and sleep now.
This stuff is hilarious! One might almost think you were serious! Be careful though. This type of parody could make some of the ultra-left wackos blow a gasket if they stumble across your site. Then they'd have the ACLU sue you for creating a public health hazard. Of course, I say keep it up, brother. I'll be praying for you!
I am glad that I read your piece. However I could not finish it, due to the lack of credibility and amounts of hate and hostility that was used. My goodness, you are comparing what seems to be a large group of gentle men with the KKK and Hitler. But YOU were the one calling them Neanderthals and the Holy Bible the Christian's Mein Kampf. I have never seen so much bitterness displayed...except for the KKK.
Get real you wacko.
Regrettably, I stumbled across your site today.
You certainly have your facts wrong.
What this nation needs is more people committed to God, and less intolerance (which you seem to have in excess).
You can be certain I'll not return to the site.
I am not a PK. But, they are better men for being positive about others than you are for being negative. I would bet my bottom dollar that you have heard no more than 5 minutes of their message, and even then you chose what to exploit. Love others, or at least let others be.
You are abysmally ignorant of historic Christianity. It's okay if you refuse to believe it; but, at least give it a fair representation. Are all religions based on a 'holy book' cults in your mind? Ridiculous!
Bless you sir, for you know not what is truth. If you read the Bible it is all there. The Lord loves when you praise and worship him. Promise Keepers is filled with the Holy Spirit. I have experienced the
Thank-you for your correspondence. It was much appreciated and somewhat of a comic relief considering the severity of the alligations on one of your web pages concerning Promise Keepers.
Curiously no specifics about these "alligations" was offered.
You said that if I found anything inaccurate about the info provided, to bring it to your attention so that you could correct it. Well, I am bringing all of it to your atention now.
First, let me apologize for sending my letter to the wrong mail address. I am a new user of the internet and am still learning. I actually got started on this journey after hearing an interview with Patricia Ireland about the PK rally in Washington D.C. on EXTRA and I wanted to find out if anyone else shared her ideas...I found you.
In actuality, most Christians and non-Christians share such "views." Most Christians know that one doesn't abandon the wife and run off with a bunch of men to pray about their marital problems. Most Christians understand that if a marriage needs work, they go as a family to a professional consular -- a minister or some other professional.
The title was enough to get my attention: "Information about the he-man woman hater Promise Keeper cult-the Skeptic Tank". Then I clicked on to your address. Too bad this statement is false. Have you actually read the seven promises of the PK? From your statements, it seems you have not. In order to understand the rest of this letter, you may need to get a copy of the seven promises in front of you. OK?
In fact I have no idea where this cultist got the "he-man woman hater Promise Keeper cult" quote. In any event, he seems to have missed the large selection of text materials concerning the Promise Keeper cult which are available through the archives here. Among them are several copies and versions of the cult's manifesto.
What the cultist doesn't mention is the hatred of homosexuals and the fascist political agenda of the cult. That's not listed in the cult's manifesto yet it is an integral aspect of the cult's ideologies.
fr>The Promise Keepers cult isn't about honor or commitment.
fr>It's about using deity constructs to justify domination of
fr>females and to dominate them-without their permission-into
OK, let's move over to the promises and see just what they're all about. shall we?
The Promise Keeper is committed to ...
The use of deity constructs to justify one's actions; actions which one knows are destructive and unethical.
Male insecurity at the prospect of females gaining equality in American society and thus moving the male from their favored position.
Hatred and fear of homosexuals -- the irony being a bunch of men who abandon their wives to think at deity constructs with each other. The most rabid homophobe is the one who harbors homosexual desires. (See Testing penile physiological responses with homosexual stimulus.)
Building a strong marriage by abandoning the wife, forcing her into the subservient role as the gods intended, and not bothering to ask her if she enjoys the position of the dominated sex.
Translation: Keep those tithes flowing in! One of the major aspect of any cult is the accumulation of wealth. As has been pointed out by the media, no one knows where the millions of dollars the cult rakes in goes to. Another aspect of cults is the perpetuation of the priesthood and its commitment to greed (always while advocating virtues.)
In fact just try to find anyone other than white Promise Keeper cult followers. Note the irony of proclaiming unify of race while at the same time denying equality for women. Open the door to a Christian church in the United States and you'll find that nearly every one of them are segregated by race. The Christian cult has many myths to "explain" negros -- black skin. All of them are predicated upon black skin being the "punishment" of some "sin."
All of the racist hate groups in the United States are theist-based hate groups. (See Hate groups operating in the United States.) Nearly every one of these hate groups are Christian. Finding an atheist hate group in the United States has been impossible.
And yet another appeal to the cult master's deity constructs for the justification of what the cult stands for.
In fact that's the hallmark of cult followers: They can't see anything wrong with their leaders or their leaders' religious beliefs.
Actually, the only reference to women at all is in promise #4 which encourages the Promise Keeper to love his wife and family, and to protect her as well as his family. Doesn't that, in turn, make the family structure stronger?
A marriage is made stronger by working together, not by one side running off to pray with other men. If cult followers are having problems with their marriages, the solution isn't to "take back authority" over the female and to run off and pray with strangers, the solution is to work together, perhaps seeking professional marriage counseling.
The Promise Keeper cult doesn't advocate strong marriages in fact (though in rhetoric they do.) They advocate domination and if the wife doesn't like that fact, tough: She has no say-so in the matter.
This really doesn't sound like your implications about forcing women into submission by the male species.
fr> a marriage is an equal partnership. The PK cult dictates
fr>inequality with the male on top. They are anti-marriage in
Well now, you are partly correct. Marriage is a partnership, but the responsibilities fo each partner are different. I'd really like to see a man give birth or see a woman out changing the oil on her sport utility vehicle-not that a woman CAN'T do it- don't get me wrong. If a woman wants to change the oil, then go for it, but it's not for me.
Amazing, huh? Officially the cult has no comment when it comes to getting women out of the workplace and back into the kitchen where they belong. In actual fact we find that the cult advocates a great many things which are not on their manifesto.
fr>The PK cult advocates domination and submission of the female...
fr>while you (as I presume a male) might find that to be positive,
fr>it's a huge step backwards through the social progress America
fr>has made over the last 70 years.
I had to chuckle to myself about this statement. You shouldn't assume anything in life. It will be your downfall.
Ummmm. And, don't you really mean to say...the social progress women have made over the last 70 years? This nation would have progressed the 70 years regardless.
The glib discounting of an uncomfortable truth. America progressed as a nation when women were given the vote and allowed a broader space in the workplace. It wasn't just women who benefited from social progress but the nation as a whole! It seems Promise Keeper cultists want to think that only women benefit from equality.
Much to your dismay and surprise, you need to know that I am NOT a male, but one of the females you seem to think are being opressed and forced into submission. Sorry. Too bad.
Actually, I am a female very secure in my femininity, my career, my lifestyle and I'm also pretty strong willed too -- but when it comes to changing the oil in my car, I'll leave that up to the men.
Ya see, marriage truely is a partnerhsip as you have said, but the partners have different roles to play in that partnership. Sometimes the roles overlap and sometimes they don't -- and Promise Keepers certainly doesn't advocate the gung-ho attitude of the "I am Man...Hear Me Roar" personna.
You can leave the child bearing up to us women because most men would probably pass out after the first contraction.
Next I suspect he'll be telling me that he's also a black atheist. If James really is a woman, this illiterate rant could serve as a useful exposure of someone who wants to be oppressed. Women stay in an abusive relationship for many reasons yet among the primary reasons is the belief that they deserve the abuse.
fr>Why don't you mention the woman in a marriage? Or doesn't she
fr>have any say so in your fascist little world?
OUCH! Chuckle, chuckle. Too bad it doesnt apply. Sorry again.
Well, I am a woman and we were disculling a male organization were we not?
Note the irony: A man claiming to be a woman discussing a male-only cult who ignores the fact that the Promise Keeper cult demands that males "take back authority" over the female. Amazing.
Anyway, the majority of stories heard about broken homes and abusive relationships, unfortunately, is negatively skewed towards the male population who choose to run out and leave the female holding the bag (and the children if any exist). Less often do you hear about the woman running out and leaving the father with three children and a welfare check. Not to say that it doesn't happen, you just don't hear about it as much.
The solution? Run off with a bunch of men and pray at each other to make it all better rather than stay at home and work out any problems they have with professionals.
More importantly: Just how many of these insecure cultists actually have family problems? Do they actually have problems for which the family as a whole should seek professional help with or are they jumping onto the cultist bandwagon because they fear the equality for females social progress in America has given them?
fr>The PK cult is an organization which hates women and uses the
fr>classical Christianic mythologies to justify 'being a service'
The lengthy run-on, meandering sentence I received below was broken up into something approaching literacy:
Are you an athiest? Am I hearing you correctly? Are you implying that Christianity is a myth? Do you say this because you don't believe in God or are you saying that you CAN'T believe in something you can't put under a microscope, see, touch, hear or understand.
Many people find it hard to put their faith in a God they can't study in a science lab, but be forwarned, science is catching up with scripture whether you believe it or not.
Well now, let's not open that can of worms. That, my friend, is an entirely different topic.
In fact it's central to the issue: These cultists use their deity constructs to justify and explain-away their fascist ideologies. Since in fact no evidence for their chosen deity constructs exist (and they are using proven mythologies in any event) the fact is central.
I would be glad to discuss it with you, but I think I've taken up quite a bit of your time as it is.
Just for your own information, I am not a victim of an abusive relationship, a distant father, or a bitter divorce, so let me reassure you that my support of men being held accountable for their actions is not spawned out of pain or resentment.
I have a wonderful father and three wonderful brothers who know how a real man - a man of God - should live- with honor, integrity and respect. I have seen first hand what Promise Keepers is all about and I support them whole heartedly. I am comfortable in myself and I believe that if all men (and women) could grasp the same concepts of Christian love, accountability, and committment, then the heartbreaking stories of abuse, wife bashing, child bashing, rape, broken homes, an other crimes against our own species would cease to exist.
This is where the breakdown of society truely lies. Our race is slowly trying to phase God out of the world He created out of love!! If this succeeds, all Hell will break loose -- LITERALLY, and Satan will have his day on the earth. WATCH OUT!
Freakish, to say the least. In fact what has always destroyed civilizations and societies has been religion. The belief in deity constructs and the use of said deity constructs to justify one's actions (which is, ironically enough, what the Promise Keeper cult does) is what destroys societies.
There is no other ideology which has a higher body count than religion. No other ideology has so divided humanity than religion -- and Christianity is at the top of the list of religions which have the worse records.
Mabey one day, there will be a counterpart of Promise Keepers for women to encourage us to live Godly lives of honor and holiness, but until then, we need to support the men that are at least trying.
And they do this by seeking to return women to the role of the oppressed. Oh: Did James Matti undergo a sex change operation in mid-posting?
I've thoroughly toured your site. If you wish to be truly convincing, try and appear a little less biased. Your anger comes through and makes much of your work ineffective.
If you are too hateful in your 'preaching' you'll be catering to the emotion-instilling methods you so strongly preach against.
People listen to reason, not anger.
Just my 2 cents...
WWJD? -- What would Jesus Do? Maybe better stated, what would Jesus say? In this world of chaos and crime, what is it that you see that is so bad about a group of men coming together to strengthen their Christianity and values which carry over to their family and society in general?
Are you so threatened by the fact that it is a group of men that you can't see the benefit spillover for our communities? Do you know their intent, based on Biblical scripture? Are you aware that there is a women's group forming with the same goal in mind? That goal is to strengthen the morals and values in this crumbling, deteriorating society.
Please reply and let me know why you feel that this is a "cult". (Noting that cult is a negative, derogatory term in this society of non-believers.)
For the first time, a large group of people, men and women, are standing up to help better this country, and I just wonder what Jesus would say.
Do you think that He would say that this is just a male chauvinistic cult who is trying to destroy His works and this country? I don't think so.
Maybe we should focus our concerns on gang violence, drugs, and true cults. And instead of trying to destroy them, maybe we should lead by example to bring them into a Christian family.
If you are not helping, you are hurting. Why try to destroy one of the strongest movements in history aimed at making this world a better place to live.
I have read your opinion abut PK , and my opinion of your view is that it is twisted and incredibly misinformed. None of what you said is the reality of PK.
I know first hand the result of a promisekeepers rally. First off I am a free thinking woman and a homemaker. I know that to people like you and the leaders of NOW think that is an oxymoron. But I can assure you it isn't.
Every succesful business has a president a - vice president ect. I see no one disputing this form of rank. Why do the feminists see a problem with it in the family unit?
Everyone works together for the good of the business .
Why not the same for the family unit.
I have added the following article to the letter.. Please take the time to read it.
Promise Keepers not about 'woman haters'
By William R. Mattox, Jr.
As hundreds of thousands of men made their way to Washington for this past weekend's "sacred assembly" sponsored by the Christian men's group Promise Keepers, I kept thinking about the "sacred assembly" held recently in London's Westminster Abbey to mourn the death of Princess Diana. And I kept wondering: What if Prince Charles had been a promise keeper?
What if Prince Charles had kept the promises he made at the wedding of the century back in 1981? What if he had honored his vows to have and to hold? To love and to cherish? To forsake all others? Would Diana have divorced him? Would she have been tooling around Paris late at night with another man? Would her life have ended so tragically?
I raise these questions not as a way of blaming Charles for the car crash in Paris, nor to suggest that he was somehow solely responsible for the breakdown of his marriage with Diana.
But I have to believe Diana's life would have turned out much differently if Prince Charles had been faithful to the vows he made to her. I have to believe Diana's life would have been much happier if Prince Charles had chosen to love his wife instead of Camilla Parker-Bowles. And I have to believe that there would be a little less cynicism about the quest for "true love" depicted in Hollywood productions like The Princess Bride if Prince Charles had acted a bit more like Prince Charming.
"Diana brought to life, on the grandest scale, the archetype of the princess inscribed on every girl's heart," writes Marjorie Williams of Vanity Fair. "A female colleague who was then in the Air Force remembers her fellow military intelligence trainees, fresh from the rigors of basic training, sitting at a predawn vigil in their barracks to watch the royal wedding, their eyes glazed with yearning."
Of course, Prince Charles is not the first man ever to let a woman down. Men Behaving Badly isn't just the name of a television show - it's an all-too-accurate explanation for why America is in cultural decline.
Which is why this weekend's Promise Keepers gathering was held. The event, which attracted at least 700,000 men, was most unusual by Washington standards. Rather than being a time for airing grievances that government is supposed to fix, the Promise Keepers' "sacred assembly" was a time for men to gather together and acknowledge their need to commit themselves to being better husbands and fathers, to being better men.
That, one would think, should be music to women's ears. Yet, strangely, Promise Keepers was under attack from feminist organizations like the National Organization for Women. NOW seems to regard PK as a grown-up version of the "He-Man Womun Haters Club" that Spanky and his gang organized in the The Little Rascals. According to NOW's Rosemary Dempsey, Promise Keepers promotes a "misogynistic message" that says "men must take back control of the family, be the head, the boss."
To be sure, Promise Keepers does call upon men to lead their families, but the leadership model it offers is not that of a domineering "lord of the manor." It is, instead, a model of "servant-leadership" patterned after the foot-washer from Galilee who said he came "not to be served, but to serve" (Mark 10:45).
Perhaps this explains why a recent study by University of Kentucky sociologist Gary Hansen found that the men most apt to help their wives with household chores are orthodox Christians who believe the Bible is God's word and the answer to all important human problems.
David Blankenhorn of the Institute for American Values finds it curious that feminist groups object so strenuously to PK's mission. "The more I listen to Promise Keepers' message - that men should be faithful to their wives and involved in their children's lives and willing to express emotion and quick to admit mistakes - the more I hear echoes of those frustrated housewives who gave 1960s feminism so much of its animating spirit," he says.
Other observers draw similar conclusions. "Men haven't joined the Promise Keepers out of some secret desire to learn how to subjugate their wives or girlfriends," writes CBS News analyst Laura Ingraham. "They want to be better husbands and fathers."
Similarly, syndicated columnist Kathleen Parker writes, "If half a million white guys commit each year to work for racial harmony, to spend more time with their kids, to pray instead of striking out, to work on an imperfect marriage rather than seeking solace on Sunset Boulevard, who's worse off? Maybe I'm missing something, but this sounds like progress to me."
Apparently, the wives of many PK men agree.
After her husband attended a Promise Keepers event several years ago, Lori Day of Springfield, Mo., wrote a letter asking, "Where is my husband? He didn't come back from the Promise Keepers conference in Dallas. A man came back who looked like my husband, but he didn't act like my husband. I don't want my old husband to return - I love my new husband's actions and attitudes. I wish every wife could have a Promise Keeper man."
Similarly, Alethea Bickell of Wichita, Kan., reported, "Before he went to Promise Keepers, I had filed for divorce - it was that bad. But something dramatic occurred. I sent a frog (to Promise Keepers) and got back a prince."
There is a certain irony in Alethea Bickell's statement. For we usually think of princes and princesses living happily ever after in some enchanting castle or majestic palace, not in a split-level in Wichita.
But if there is any lesson to be learned from the tragic life of Princess Diana, it is that all of the rubies and crowns and horse-drawn carriages do not make one a princess. The love of a prince does.
Let's hope Promise Keepers gives us more princes.
William R. Mattox Jr. is an award-winning writer who serves on USA TODAY's board of contributors.
Tina G. DeMarco
Sir, you are lost. If you *can't* listen to the context for the few statements you have extracted, then you may be pardoned.
You should realize that PK seeks for men to "lead" by ** SERVING **. This is not a dominance thing. Nor is it a cult. If you don't believe the Bible as 100% truth, and don't accept Jesus as your personal savior and lord, then I don't expect you to understand this. But you should know that every gathering of PK is filled with men who want to serve their wives, love them and cherish them. If you take the time to really listen objectively, maybe you'll see this.
PK men desire to love their wives as 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 says:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices in the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
Sure, PK may not be perfect, but then, who is?
Thanks be to Jesus Christ for paying for our sins so we can live to see God's face!
Love in Christ,
Yes, "love in Christ" unless you happen to be gay, a woman, or black.