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From: Jeff Groth <grognard@sumter.net>

To: frice@skeptictank.org

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:53:20 -0400
Subject: pk

If you wrote this page then you are some commie liberal limp-wrist who wouldn't know decency if it hit you in the face.

If you wrote this as a joke then you had me going there.... good one.

Typical liberal pabulum about males who don't fit the feminist ideal of what they want men to be.

No reply necessary or wanted.

One of the most used methodologies of a cult follower is known as "Rant and Run." This one also employs the methodology known as "poisoning the well" by asking that his bizarre rant not be addressed. In response to reason and unavoidable truths (no matter that some might find them embarrassing) the only defense here was a series of unusual personal attacks.



From: "Elizabeth M. Bowles" <elizabeth@ctwok.com>

To: frice@skeptictank.org

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:18:54 -0500
Subject: ?????

Were you there? At Promise Keepers?

My husband and two sons went and they all came back with an intense desire to serve me. I am happy that they went and now understand more clearly that PK is not about supressing but about serving.

Men are being "of service" to women when they "take back authority" over their wives. It's unfortunate that some women see nothing wrong with this and don't see such subservient roles as demeaning and the start of something worse.

Spousal abuse and dominating relationships are rampant because both men and women will return to their abusive spouses for a variety of reasons. Among the top three reasons are:

  • Finances. Leaving an abusive relationship when one has no marketable skills and no prospects for acquiring same becomes more frightening than staying. Women's shelters provide temporary safety yet even after a heavy beating, women will more often than not return to their abusive husbands.

  • Justice. Many men and women who are dominated and/or beaten by their spouse eventually believe that they deserve the abuse. In a domination relationship such as what the Promise Keepers advocates, it's no surprise that a great many women come to believe it's all for their own good. If the abuse manifests itself early in the relationship it is easier to accept that one's abuse isn't one's fault. Justification kicks in solidly whenever one convinces oneself they deserve what they get.

  • Love. Love can supersede anything. Every fatal flaw can be ignored or overlooked if exhibited by a loved one.

It's unfortunate that some women would set aside the struggle for equality and settle for a subservient role once again.


[Heavily reformatted. This one was a run-on, meandering sentence and I have tried to break it up into manageable, readable pieces - flr]


From: James Matti <matti@mediaone.net>

To: frice@skeptictank.org

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:15:04 -0400
Subject: PK again

Why Fred, I'm shocked!!

Did you even have the courtesy to read my letter??

If you had, you would have seen that it was full of information just for YOU. I'm insulted that you think my letter was "a lot of illiterate, meandering ranting". I can't get any more specific than the Word of God. How much more specific do you want me to get??

In actual fact, after much reformatting and piecing together what this guy was trying to say, I was able to read his whole message.

What's interesting is that the claimant is seeking to divert attention away from his own claims and is trying to pretend that his gods were really responsible: They're not the cultist's words, they're the words of one of his gods. While I didn't notice any "words of gods" in among his claims, I have no doubt he believes there were some somewhere.

I gave you a list of the seven promises of the Promise Keepers and discussed each one accordingly. I also,then, shared with you the mistakes in the article that started this entire ordeal. For you to attack me personally only shows that you are truely misinformed.

This is common of cultists: They latch upon the written agenda of their cult leaders and ignore both the unavoidable consequences of their ideals and the plethora of documented texts which debunk same.

I won't expect any more corresponcence from you, so you can quote Descartes all you want, but he can't save your soul. Sorry. God loves you and He died for you so that you could have everlasting life. To reject Him and His Spirit is the ONLY unforgivable sin and I hope you will not reject His Word any longer. After all, if you're not for Him, then you're against Him. Heaven help you. This letter is NOT from James!! It's from Amanda!!! got it??

Emulating one of the previous cultist, this one adopts "Rant and Run," asking that his freakish claims not be addressed. This behavior was doubtless prompted by the calm, rational, reasoned debunking of his cult beliefs.

When jingoistic rhetoric didn't work, he tried a sequence of freakish Alpha Male primate threats.



From: Mike Moxley <mmoxley@foto.infi.net>

To: frice@skeptictank.org

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:27:45 -0400
Subject: The Promise Keeper cult:It can happen here

The Promise Keeper cult: It can happen here article is the most hateful, bigoted, prejudiced, piece of writing I have ever read. I am flat out amazed how many lies can be written in one article. The author is obviously unbalanced, immoral, and a liar. The authors demented agenda is clearly one of unbridled HATE.

And yet for some curious reason the claimant forgot to enumerate any specifics and ended up with a message consisting of nothing but vague accusations and ranting about "lies."

In fact any inaccuracies concerning the various reviews of the Promise Keeper cult one might find here at The Skeptic Tank should be brought to the attention of someone on staff so that it may be corrected.

Good Day,


Mike Moxley
Rt. 20, Box 856
Fayetteville, NC 28306



From: Caleb Kuykendall <caleb.kuykendall@student.oc.edu>

To: "'frice@skeptictank.org'" <frice@skeptictank.org>

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:08:13 -0500
Subject:

who are you to write hateful things about people with the purpose of trying to do what they think is right? Have you ever actually been to a promise keepers rally or even heard about one with an open mind. I doubt it. You are so concerned with destroying something that you dont even take the time to get your facts straight. I am in no position to judge you or anyone on the planet for that matter, but who do you think will judge you when you die? I hope you rethink your motive instead of trying to defend your onesided cause.

Another illiterate, meandering rant which ends in a freakish display of Alpha Male primate behavior.

This overriding fear of death seems to be one of the major aspects of the Promise Keeper mentality. Experiencing interaction with others who don't share such unhealthy fears seems to prompt a crisis wherein the claimant must reassert his or her fears.


[Heavily reformatted. This one didn't bother to expend any effort to correctly attribute text so I have done so (hopefully doing so correctly.)

This one is interesting since after having it pointed out to him that the Promise Keeper cult uses the Christian mythologies to justify their fascism, he does the same thing and presumably sees nothing surreal or ironic about doing so - flr]


From: "Steve Gronsman" <sgron@iserv.net>

To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:38:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers

Sorry I forgot to quote it for you.

sg> I would like to respond to a comment you sg> made in you last e-mail to me.

fr> Why didn't you quote it?

"It's also unfortunate that so many men feel they must dominate their wives and justify it with the Christian gods. That should be a blasphemy."

fr> The KKK, Aryan Nations, Church of Jesus Christ Christian, the
fr> various so-called "Identity" groups, the Holocaust Deniers,
fr> and "pro-life" fascists are _all_ Christian groups
fr> which advocate their hatred from the pulpit.

fr> I know this already. Was that your point?

Yes, this was my point. I believe if it a churches information does not come from the Bible the church should not hold the title "Christian". It is a disgrace to all true, love teaching Christians when someone claims to hold the title Christian, yet advocated hatred, bigotry, or racism.

The irony here is that the Promise Keeper uses the Christian mythologies to justify their hatred of women and homosexuals. Indeed, the Christian mythologies is a tool which has historically been used for this purpose.

Fascism and Christianity are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, fascism has found Christianity to be a very successful weapon to use against the innocent. And all of it justified with the Christian mythologies.

Luke 6:27-29 (the words Jesus) But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.

1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Romans 12:9-16 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in spiritual zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with Gods people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who morn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

Luke 14:26 is pretty good: "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple." (NRSV) See too, Matt. 19:29.

fr> That's a blasphemy inasmuch as the Christian mythologies are
fr> fraught with contradictions and scientific blunders.

I'm not sure what you consider to be "the Christian mythologies" but I believe the Bible to lack contradiction or blunder. Please share with me your favorite Biblical contradiction or blunder.

My guess is that Promise Keepers are not allowed to read their own mythologies.

As far as my favorite scientific blunder, that would have to be the mistaken belief that mustard seeds grow to be trees suitable for birds to nest in. It would seem that whoever wrote this particular piece of the mythologies was grossly ignorant of botanical facts.

When it comes to contradictions, my favorite would have to be the five conflicting creation myths. While none of them can be true, it seems that Creationists, at least, manage to believe all five conflicting myths. The resulting pathology is known as "cognitive disonance."

fr> You make my point for me: Using deity constructs to justify
fr> evil is exactly what Christianity does best. Fear, insecurity,
fr> ignorance, and greed drive the Promise Keeper cult -- and you
fr> just proved it once again by trying to justify your evil with
fr> the Christian mythologies.

I am unclear to me how putting the needs of another before mine is evil.

The logical fallacy known as "begging the question." In fact males in this cult are expected to dominate their wives in order to "take back authority" and this return themselves to their favored position. And all for the little woman's good, of course.

This is understandable rhetoric since it is quite true that males in American society did enjoy a protected role of masters of the house. This has changed and the cult seeks to restore that position.

For the purpose of allowing us to spend eternity in heaven Jesus came to earth and allowed himself to be killed for. This is the ultimate in putting the needs of others before mine. This is how I must treat my wife. My wife has told me that she is glad that she is not told in the Bible to love me as Christ loves the church because this is such a difficult task. Not only is the man in a leadership position in his home he must lead as a lowly servant and NEVER put his need above his families needs. Please read the following verses from the Bible again to look at the example for Jesus.

And now the claimant devolves into a freakish rant.

Philippians 2:4-8 Each of you should not look to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in the very nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on the cross!

In fact in many places in the Christian mythologies the Jesus god was stoned to death and then hung from a living tree. In any event there were thousands of people who were crucified by the Romans. I have to wonder if they were all the sons of gods.

I would like to sincerely thank you for you replies to my e-mails. You seem to have strong convictions on what you believe. That is very a respectable. I look forward to hearing from you again.

1 Peter 3:15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give a reason for the hope that you have. But do this in gentleness and respect.

2 Kings 6:28 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow.

6:29 So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

"Live by the mythologies; die by the mythologies." It is always interesting to watch cultists quote Christian mythology as if it were somehow meaningful.

Steve Gronsman
sgron@iserv.net



From: Kellene Shuffield <keljim@centex.net>

To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>

Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 17:04:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers--WWJD?

fr> If you are requesting information from the archives related
fr> to a certain topic, I need a clear and concise description
fr> of the materials you are looking for. I was unable to pick
fr> through your message since it was an illiterate, run-on
fr> sentence.

Admittedly, I didn't use paragraphs in appropriate places. It comes from the lack of grammatically correct habits in cyberspace. Also, if you will refer to your English book, you will find that my letter to you was not illiterate, nor a run-on sentence.

It's not doubted for a moment that every cultist who launches a bizarre, illiterate missive honestly believes they did a good job of it.

If you choose not to answer my questions, please justify your lack of response by something other that grammatical errors. Your response did not offend me, rather it frustrated me that you chose not to back up your feelings about promise keepers. Why is this? Is it because you may be wrong, or because you don't want to face the possibility that you might be wrong?

In fact this claimant didn't ask any discernible questions and, after trying to piece through his illiterate rant, appeared to be asking for information about the Promise Keeper cult.

God loves you and so do I,

The expected insult. Somehow the cultist always manages to forgot to include any evidence for their deity constructs.


Jim Shuffield
keljim@centex.net



From: Raptime@aol.com

To: frice@skeptictank.org

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:23:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Twisted viewpoint

Dear Fredric,

I have no desire to debate you on the topic of Promise Keepers. "You will know them by their fruit," time will tell if you are right or wrong.

Translation: I didn't expect you to debunk my cherished occult beliefs so easily. I'm comfortable in my beliefs and probably should have just kept my mouth shut.

I did check out your Skeptic Tank though. I see you are a Jesus hater. That's very sad.

One wonders how this cultist came to this bizarre conclusion. One can't hate something that doesn't exist. That's as idiotic as being a "Santa hater" or a "Wonder Woman hater."

Only those people who believe in the occult can fear the occult enough to hate it. What we find in this particular case is that the claimant couldn't provide any specifics.

I guess John 3:18-20 sums it up for you. I will pray that your heart will be softened. By the way, it really doesn't matter what He died on. He died for you Fredric and he rose so you would have the same hope.

This one ends with a voodoo threat. Magical threats can only work upon those who believe in superstition, of course, so I'm quite immune to such silly claptrap.

People who feel deep resentment at having their deeply-held beliefs exposed as wishful thinking seem to need to let the object of their resentment know that they are going to be thinking at them -- as if by letting them know they're thinking at them is some kind of punishment.

When a man lives in darkness all his life, he calls the light bad, because it hurts his eyes.

And to the goddess Hel with the woman who is only a projection and plaything for the man.

When a man or a woman live in fear all their lives, they will call fascism, bigotry, and intolerance good and defend their evil at any cost.

Having to face the unavoidable eventuality of their own deaths, cultists will adopt any superstition they think will save them; Creationists and Promise Keepers are but two manifestations of this phenomena.

Sincerely,
Tina <><

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